Posts by Ultimate Reality

10

Shunning advocated and taught in 1893 Watchtower. Disfellowship and shun apostates.

by Aussie Oz in

i am actually a bit shocked!

i mean, i understood that up to 1953 the watchtower was against disfellowshipping and shunning, castigating the catholic church for the practice in the 1947 awake!

no mixed message here as russell proclaims the righteousness and neccessity of shunning.

Ultimate Reality

The opening and final paragraphs of the above referenced article (which do not appear above) define such ones as those that have known the truth and been blessed by the truth but have turned away from it -- like the dog returning to its vomit. In this context 'the truth' is not the organization as is now taught -- but Biblical truth, and about the ransom in particular.

The language is very similar to what is used by the Society today. But today the language is all loaded. Russell was referring to Scriptural Apostasy rather than any sort of Organizational Apostasy.

10

Shunning advocated and taught in 1893 Watchtower. Disfellowship and shun apostates.

by Aussie Oz in

i am actually a bit shocked!

i mean, i understood that up to 1953 the watchtower was against disfellowshipping and shunning, castigating the catholic church for the practice in the 1947 awake!

no mixed message here as russell proclaims the righteousness and neccessity of shunning.

Ultimate Reality

wannabefree:

You are correct. 'True Christians', in Russell's view, existed in all churches. Heart unity and faith in Jesus, not the belief in a certain creed (WT or other), made a person a Christian. Disagreement with the WT in his day did not make one an apostate. We do see, however, how his original teachings were morphed into what they are today. Unity of heart and faith in Jesus were replaced by unity of belief (in the WT) and unity of faith (in the WT).

269

Have your JW Relatives Explained about Generation/Overlap Change to You ?

by flipper in

jw
friends

after reading on the way out's thread about his mom explaining the generation overlap to him it kicked this idea into my head to make this thread .

i thought it would be helpful to see if anybody here has had jw relatives or friends try to explain this " generation overlap " theory to you as a faded or inactive witness and what happened in the conversations.

so please feel free to post your experiences.

Ultimate Reality

@DG

I am not making an interpretive claim and therefore I do not need to provide evidence to support my claim. The Society's prophetic assertions require evidence if we are to believe them. For a specific example, how do we know that Matthew 24 has a secondary, larger fulfillment? That's a particularly important chapter since it contains the 'generation'.

The concept that we take certain prophetic verses and make them have a 19th, 20th, or 21st century secondary application is based on human speculation.

If you do not understand these issues and neither do most of Jehovah's Witnesses, then why do you believe the claim? Do you even know the origin of this interpretive method? Origins are important -- just like the origins of Christmas!

Don't feel bad about not answering. I do know the answers and I have done a little more than just 'study' with Jehovah's Witnesses.

269

Have your JW Relatives Explained about Generation/Overlap Change to You ?

by flipper in

jw
friends

after reading on the way out's thread about his mom explaining the generation overlap to him it kicked this idea into my head to make this thread .

i thought it would be helpful to see if anybody here has had jw relatives or friends try to explain this " generation overlap " theory to you as a faded or inactive witness and what happened in the conversations.

so please feel free to post your experiences.

Ultimate Reality

Ok, I'll try again...

How do we know, according to the Bible itself and not human speculation, that a Bible prophecy has a secondary, larger fulfillment?

Can you cite any scriptural proof to support this interpretive theory?

269

Have your JW Relatives Explained about Generation/Overlap Change to You ?

by flipper in

jw
friends

after reading on the way out's thread about his mom explaining the generation overlap to him it kicked this idea into my head to make this thread .

i thought it would be helpful to see if anybody here has had jw relatives or friends try to explain this " generation overlap " theory to you as a faded or inactive witness and what happened in the conversations.

so please feel free to post your experiences.

Ultimate Reality

Will someone please provide the SCRIPTURAL JUSTIFICATION for the 'major' and 'minor' fulfillment concept of a Bible prophecy? The so-called 'double-sense' method of interpretation...aka Parallel Dispensations.

The Society is completely dependent on this concept. However, the 'new' generation definition does cause problems since the 'second, larger fulfillment' no longer matches the 1st century time of a generation (leading up to 70CE) nor the concept of a generation (like the one that 'saw the events of 1914').

14

Not doubting in private

by 5thGeneration in

can anyone please help me find this wt quote.. it was from around 1999-2002.. where it says it would be wrong to have any doubts, even in private.

something to that effect.. thanks.. 5th.

Ultimate Reality

So, to keep your place faithfully, do not follow the wicked course of Satan the Devil. He let iniquity, that is, lawlessness and rebellion against Jehovah’s organization, take root in his heart. Do not openly or secretly challenge Jehovah’s channel of communication, as Korah, Dathan and Abiram did, lest the earth swallow you up and you lose your place among those who will live in the new world. – Watchtower, July 15, 1958, p. 440

"The spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience" is so widespread that it is like the air we breathe. (Eph. 2:2) That spirit can cause us to think that we do not need guidance from Jehovah's organization. Surely we do not want to be like Diotrephes, who would not 'receive anything from the apostle John with respect.' (3 John 9,10) We need to guard against developing a spirit of independence. By word or action, may we never challenge the channel of communication that Jehovah is using today.(Num 16:1-3) On the contrary, we should cherish our privilege to cooperate with the slave class. And should we not strive to be obedient and submissive to those taking the lead in our local congregation? – Watchtower, November 15, 2009 p. 13

6

Help with Doubting BIL

by Simon Morley in

i have a bil that has started to doubt.

he is hung up on the fact that he sees jw's as the only one fullfilling the preaching of the good news.

i am sure there are some excellent past posts on this topic and would be happy to get them.

Ultimate Reality

The 'preaching work' identifies a particular period of time -- not a religious group. We know that the preaching work had a first century fulfillment, but where in Jesus words do we find evidence that there will be a secondary fulfillment?

Also, when a Witness goes to a door and the householder already has a Bible and a basic knowledge of Christianity, is that due to the preaching work of Jehovah's Witnesses? Obviously not. It is a grand work only in their minds.

127

Disrespect of the Bible

by brotherdan in

jw
friends

i am going to get a lot of flack for this post, but i need to do it.

i want to preface this by saying that i don't judge any of you and i believe in the right of freedom of speech and freedom of religion, including your freedom to not practice one.. however, i'm finding a trend among some ex jws here.

notice the word "some".

Ultimate Reality

BrotherDan, you have a PM.

168

Jehovah correcting the organization

by sabastious in

read the account of moses taking the credit for the water provision miracle and that of king david's folly and his consequences.. ...read them.... ...you are still reading.... ...ok now you have that fresh in your mind.. jehovah had a correctional arrangement in place for all his spokesmen.

story of jonah would work great too.

the point being that in the bible god has always had this correctional arrangement for the leaders of his earthly organization.. that being said, where did that arrangement go?

Ultimate Reality

Alice,

You quoted 1 Timothy and pointed our that Jesus is the mediator. Are you aware (according to the Society) that Jesus is NOT the mediator for virtually all of Jehovah's Witnesses and certainly not even a potential mediator for Earth's billions?

This is the core problem with the Governing Body concept and any other group or individual that claims to be an Earthly representative of God. They seek to take over Christ's role as mediator.

The Watchtower of November 15, 1979, page 26, made this comment:

“What, then, is Christ’s role in this program of salvation? Paul proceeds to say: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men [not, all men], a man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.”—1 Tim. 2:5, 6.

The insertion "[not, all men]" is the Society blatantly changing the meaning of the Bible.

How do you feel about this?

50

How often does a Wt song run through your head

by Lady Lee in

jw
friends

yesterday i was sitting here and all of a sudden realized i was humming one of those dreadful songs.

i even remembered the words!

<chills>.. so i sat here and started singing other songs out loud, which i normally don't do even though i live alone and don't have to listen to people begging me to stop singing.. so how do you get those songs out of your head?.

Ultimate Reality

It happens more often than I like. But what was very unusual was when I was going through a lot of emotions, coming to grips with the true history of the Society and its teachings and its impact on my life. I was studying the Bible and historical publications a few hours every day, day after day, and had come see all the problems.

I would wake up in the morning with Kingdom Melodies constantly running through my head and it would continue through the day. It was like all these songs and their teachings were resurfacing, not wanting to let go of my mind. Eventually it subsided, but it was intense for a period of time.